An interview with the man behind Bowie

When David Bowie passed away, the world lost a really special musician. The greatest artists rarely achieve everything they’ve done alone, and Bowie was no exception. I sat down with his main producer and collaborator in this interview with Tony Visconti [pdf] from our book, Beautiful Teams. The book is an exploration of what makes teams tick, through interviews and stories from people who worked with both extraordinary and ordinary teams. Being from the world of software, Jenny and I concentrated on software teams. But we wanted to go beyond software to try to discover some basic truths about teams. When I reached out to Tony, I expected interesting anecdotes, but I was really surprised (and pleased!) with how much his stories about working with rock stars reminded me of the other stories in the book.

Here’s the interview in its entirety, along with an introduction featuring another highly insightful mind, Tim O’Reilly. I hope you find this sheds light not just on the mind of a brilliant musician and producer, but also on your experiences with your own teams.

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Demoralize Your Teams Quickly And Efficiently With Micromanagement

Apparently I’ve earned the dubious distinction of having become an expert in project failure. I’ve always had an interest in project failure—Jenny and I have been doing our “Why Projects Fail” talk for years now, and we’ve talked to many people in many different industries (like in our fourth book, Beautiful Teams) about what’s gone wrong on their projects. We’ve looked at failures on projects through the years, from small misfires on our own projects to dramatic failures like the Tacoma Narrows Bridge disaster, to try to figure out what software developers can learn from them.

One of my favorite ways that projects can fail is death by micromanagement. It’s a nasty, insidious problem for a couple of reasons. It’s easy for a boss to fall into the micromanagement trap, especially for a project that’s starting to spiral out of control, because when you feel like your project is slipping away from you, it’s hard to resist the urge to tighten your grip on every part of it that you can.

And the people on the team have trouble recognizing it because a lot of them have never worked any other way. I’ve said it before, and I’m sure I’ll say it again: I’m willing to bet that if someone was able to conduct an accurate survey, they would find that a surprisingly large number of managers are micromanagers.

On the other hand, if you’re a boss or a project manager looking for a great way to demoralize your team and cause your projects to fail, micromanagement is a great way to do it. Here are some handy tips to make sure your team hates you and your project runs into serious trouble:

  • Make sure you don’t give your team enough time to do the work, and then blame them for not getting it done on time.
  • Routinely ask people to stop working on whatever they’re doing right now to take care of urgent emergency work.
  • Then utterly fail to follow up on that urgent emergency work.
  • Never let anyone on your team release anything or even talk to a user without giving it to you to look over first.
  • When they give you that work, make sure you send it back with a whole lot of vague and poorly thought-out changes – but make sure you don’t give any extra time to make them.
  • In fact, try to constantly find many small changes that your team should make, just to keep them on their toes.
  • Your team needs constant attention! If it’s been more than two hours since you’ve talked to someone on your team, drop by and tap one of them on the shoulder and ask for an update.
  • All organizations run on status. If the status updates stop flowing, a company can crumble and perish! Also, developers feel lonely if they haven’t given a status update in the last few hours. So make sure everyone has to fill out elaborate status reports, and make sure you hold at least three two-hour-long status meetings every week.
  • Did someone on your team do something differently than how you would do it? Reprimand them! They might tell you that it works just fine, and that their way is just as good. But it’s not your way, so it’s not right.
  • Remember: reading your mind is part of every team member’s job. That’s how they stay proactive!

Most of all, though, remember rule #1: Nobody is ever allowed to make mistakes! If a developer makes a mistake, it reflects badly on you, and the whole team suffers. Never admit that you were wrong about anything. If you said it once, it’s now the law and should never be questioned.

If you follow this simple advice, then your team will be demoralized in no time. Also, they’ll hate you. Oddly, though, there’s a good chance that they won’t get their resumes together and start looking for new jobs. I have a theory about this: when you micromanage a team, it drains their will to such an extent that they no longer care. Psychologists call this state “learned helplessness.”  The Wikipedia article on learned helplessness has a good description of a classic experiment by Martin Seligman and Steve Maier:

In part one of Seligman and Steve Maier‘s experiment, three groups of dogs were placed in harnesses. Group One dogs were simply put in the harnesses for a period of time and later released. Groups Two and Three consisted of “yoked pairs.” A dog in Group 2 would be intentionally subjected to pain by being given electric shocks, which the dog could end by pressing a lever. A Group 3 dog was wired in parallel with a Group 2 dog, receiving shocks of identical intensity and duration, but his lever didn’t stop the electric shocks. To a dog in Group 3, it seemed that the shock ended at random, because it was his paired dog in Group 2 that was causing it to stop. For Group 3 dogs, the shock was apparently “inescapable.” Group 1 and Group 2 dogs quickly recovered from the experience, but Group 3 dogs learned to be helpless, and exhibited symptoms similar to chronic clinical depression.

In part two of the Seligman and Maier experiment, these three groups of dogs were tested in a shuttle-box apparatus, in which the dogs could escape electric shocks by jumping over a low partition. For the most part, the Group 3 dogs, who had previously “learned” that nothing they did had any effect on the shocks, simply lay down passively and whined. Even though they could have easily escaped the shocks, the dogs didn’t try.

If reading about the Group 3 dogs reminds you of work, then there’s a very good chance that you’re being micromanaged.

When team members hate each other

We don’t always get to choose our teammates, especially at work. So what do you do when you just don’t get along with someone on your team?

What's your point?

Not too long ago, I was doing our Beautiful Teams talk at a brown bag lunch for a big financial company here in New York. At the end of the talk, I got a really good question:

What do you do when you’re on a team with people who don’t get along?

We don’t get to choose our teams, and while I’ve been on plenty of teams that gelled really well, I’ve definitely had to work with people who just rubbed me the wrong way or, worse, where the feeling was mutual. It’s a tough problem, but one that should be really familiar to anyone who’s been working with teams for a long time.

I have to admit that while I’ve had success working on teams with people who didn’t get along, there have definitely been a few times when I didn’t handle that situation as well as I could have. Luckily, those are the situations where we learn the most.

That’s actually one of the main reasons Jenny and I wanted to talk to Andy Lester when we were talking to contributors for Beautiful Teams. Andy runs a great website called The Working Geek, where he talks about working life for programmers, sysadmins and other geek types. And he had some really interesting things to say about how people interact with each other — especially geeky types (like me), since we seem to be especially prone to interpersonal problems. (Imagine that!)

I really liked this quote from Andy, because I think it cuts to the heart of the matter:

I was on a team once where I said, “At the very least, can we just have minimal respect for everyone here?” And I was asked quite seriously by someone else, “Well, what if not everybody on this team is worthy of respect?” And that’s baffling to me as a human, but it’s also not uncommon. And that minimal amount of respect is something that many just don’t get.

Andy Lester, Beautiful Teams (chapter 5)

He’s right. When I look back over my own career, I find that many of my own conflicts with people on my team stemmed from a basic lack of respect. Since I was the top programmer on the team, I thought I knew better than everyone else about everything. Once someone got something wrong technically, I’d write that person off entirely because they didn’t have my respect.

Andy offers some really good personal advice for getting past those problems, both in his Beautiful Teams chapter and on his blog.

But I wanted to go a little further than that, because sometimes interpersonal problems aren’t going to be repaired. The person who asked me the question was in this situation: when I asked him about it, it sounded like some of his teammates were simply never going to get along with each other. So what do you do about that?

As it turns out, the answer I gave him comes from another part of Beautiful Teams. When Jenny and I were putting it together, we put a lot of thought into how to divide it into sections. And so many people talked explicitly about setting goals for projects that we ended up including an entire section called Goals.

So my answer to anyone who’s got insurmountable (at least, in the short run) conflicts between team members is to make sure that you’ve established what many of our contributors referred to as an “elevating goal.”

One of those contributors was Steve McConnell, who also happens to be one of my favorite authors. We asked another one of our favorite authors (and an old friend of mine), Scott Berkun, to interview him for the book, and out of that interview came this great quote:

If you’re out digging ditches, that’s not very elevating or inspiring. But if you’re digging ditches to protect your town that’s about to be attacked by an enemy, well, that’s more inspiring, even though it’s the same activity. And so the leader’s job, really, is to try to determine or frame the activity in such a way that people can understand what the value is.

Steve McConnell, Beautiful Teams (chapter 16)

I think that really cuts to the heart of what it means to establish an elevating vision, and it should help show why that can help get past serious team problems. I have to admit that before working on this book, I hadn’t really given that much thought to establishing a vision. Yes, establishing a goal for a project is important, but I always thought about it in terms of the work that had to be done. I’d generally dismiss anything like an “elevating vision or goal” as a business-speak buzzword. A really valuable lesson for me was just how important it is to get everyone on the team on board with that one singular vision — and I mean actually understanding and embracing the vision for the project, and not just agreeing to some sort of lame mission statement.

What’s especially useful about getting everyone on the team to see the same vision is that you don’t need to be a manager or team lead to do it. All you need to do, minimally, is talk to people on your team. I’ve been brought onto projects where people on the team thought that there were serious architecture or requirements or quality problems. But once I started I talking to people, it turned out that everyone had a completely different idea of what they were building and why they were building it. I’ve found over and over again that just writing down what we’re building and who we’re building it for (using a Vision and Scope Document, for example) is enough to help the situation. It’s uncanny how often I’ve heard people say something like, “Wait, we’re building what? I thought we were doing something completely different!”

Anyone on the team can do that, and it’s a really valuable tool to help with serious teammate problems. The clearer everyone sees the real goal of the project, the easier it is to get past the disagreements and arguments and get on with the work. It’s something I’ve seen in real life many times, and it really does work: people are much more willing to settle disagreements and just get down to business if they can see that there’s a real end that they’re working towards.

When I look back at the times where I was able to successfully navigate serious team problems that were caused by people who didn’t like each other, I can see how this is exactly what I did. Even when people didn’t get along, I found that if I was able to get each person to see the bigger picture and work towards something he or she believed in, then most of the time they were able to put their problems on the back burner, at least long enough to get through, say, a meeting or a code review. And that was enough to save the project.